As you are all probably aware, we have just recently returned from what is now our second visit to Rayville, Missouri and the small, but growing community of Christian-agrarians the Lord has been establishing there. What a blessing it was for both my family and I to have this opportunity to visit our wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ at CRC Rayville, it is not a n experience we will ever forget and we are deeply grateful to the Lord who Sovereignly opened the doors that made this trip possible. Without His aid, it would never have happened, and for that, I shall be forever thankful.
For a little over a year now, my family and I have been seriously considering the possibility that the Lord might be leading us to join this community as we seek to move out of the city onto a larger piece of land in obedience to the multi-generational, agrarian vision He has given us. Because of this, it was our desire to spend most of our available time in fellowship and discussion with the community members themselves, not just looking at land as we did last year. For although we knew the land to be good for farming, this is not the only reason we are interested in that particular area. Rather our motivation to pursue moving to the area around Rayville is because we are seeking a covenantal community such as the one the Lord has been establishing there. Much of this reason has been due to a comment Mr. McConnell made during our previous visit that, upon reflection, reinforced and deepened the convictions the Lord had begun to bring about through our own study and experience. He said, “You can’t just find a piece of land that suits your fancy and expect God to bless your endeavors or bring you the fellowship of true Christian community. You must first find a like-minded community with which you can covenant and there He will bless your obedience by giving you His land.” Since that time, and as the Lord has deepened my understanding of His doctrine and Covenant, it has become vividly clear to me that one of the foremost and primary prerequisites for identifying a future home for our farm is finding an agrarian-minded community with which to covenant in a multi-generational vision of rebuilding a biblically agrarian culture. Thus, we felt it was critical to spend our time checking out the community itself in an attempt to determine if it was the one God is calling us to join.
Our only difficulty was in deciding how best to accomplish this goal without imposing ourselves too drastically upon their time. However, as He so often did during this trip, the Lord intervened on our behalf and saved us the need to worry upon that regard. As we began communicating with Mr. McConnell about the dates and time of our arrival, it became clear that a good portion of our stay had already been planned for us, (they had known that we were likely to be coming for some time already). Contrary to this posing any impediment to our plans, we immediately saw it as a great blessing because it opened wide the door for the personal discussion and inquiry we needed to aid in our decision. Indeed, their hospitality was almost unbounded, and everyone went out of their way to make us feel welcome. We were hosted for dinner almost every night of our stay and the fellowship and discussion we had over the wonderful home-cooked food was delightful. Not to mention the great blessing it was to have so many meals provided for us.
As I had the chance to sit down and talk with everybody back there, I found it so refreshing to see and hear the Lord brought into every area of their lives. This is something that, outside our own family, we have found to be far and few between. As the Lord has given us light and ability to come out and separate ourselves from the pagan, Babylonian culture of captivity in which we were born, we have found some of the greatest resistance and opposition to come from those who professed to be our friends and fellow Christians. We find that as soon as we begin to share the truth and relevance of God’s Word, we are shunned and called legalists. We are told that doctrine divides and thus we should avoid it at all costs. The same seems to apply to such words and topics as separatism, covenant, or law. Thus, to share communion with brothers and sisters who love the law of the Lord and seek to live it out in their daily lives, was both encouraging and inspiring. Along these same lines, it was a great privilege to be able to attend the Lord’s Day meeting, hear Mr. McConnell preach, and share in their fellowship meal. Another part of meeting that was of particular enjoyment to me was the time spent singing hymns and listening to John Caudle play the piano. I learned a couple of fantastic hymns that I had not heard before and John’s playing style was a real treat compared to the strait-jacketed stuff usually heard at church gatherings. I guess there is also the modern rock-band garbage that can be heard at those Babylonian facades (mega-churches) that call themselves the church of God, (although I can no longer bring myself to address them as such). But that doesn’t even broach being compared to such heavenly music!
As if all this were not enough, we were given a huge treat by Mr. McConnell who gave us a personal introduction to his amazing, four-footed partners: Sam and Sadie. Our first time behind the team was for a family tour of Rayville and the surrounding area. During this time, all four of us took turns driving the mules, while those who weren’t currently handling the lines got introduced to the country and some of its history by Mr. McConnell, or enjoyed the conversation with Jeff Klute and Joyce Morrell and her children who had also come along for the wagon ride. Exciting that was, I was even more thrilled when Mr. McConnell invited me to spend Monday morning with him taking Sam and Sadie on a longer exercise run through the Crooked River Valley. He started by giving me hands on instruction on how to curry comb and harness them. At first all that harness seemed like a lot to keep track of but once he had walked me through the process on Sam I found I was able to harness Sadie pretty much all by myself, with Mr. McConnell only giving a few reminders here and there. Over the past few years, I have read thousands of pages on draft horses and related issues, covering everything from the names and functions of the harness, to driving techniques, to care, stabling and breeding, but actually working with these magnificent animals “hands on” far surpasses anything that can be gained through reading a book. After they were all harnessed and ready to go, we spent the next hour or two driving through the beautiful land in the Crooked River Valley, during which Mr. McConnell let me do almost all the driving. Once we got back, I even had the chance to work them all by myself, while Tom, Art and Jeff filled the wagon with a load of firewood from the back paddock. Sam and Sadie weren’t sure what they thought about that situation. They could see everybody whom they were accustomed to have handling the lines working on the ground, and they weren’t sure who that left in control. I had to learn to be a little more aggressive and let them know I was still in authority.
Wow! All those words just to try and explain how much I enjoyed working with the mules, and yet I don’t feel it gives even the foggiest impression of how much fun it really was. I guess the same would apply for this entire trip, for this post has only scratched the surface. As is usually the case I have found my ability with words to be woefully inadequate to describe how thrilling the experience really was, but I guess it will have to do for now!
To close, I want to say a big Thank You to those in the Rayville community for their generous hospitality and to let them know that whether the Lord leads us to join them or not I wish them all the best as they seek to follow Christ and build His Kingdom!
Tyler
Here I am getting the run through on how to harness a Mule, quite a lot to pay attention to and remember but fun nonetheless!
Mom taking a turn on the lines! This was during the first day’s wagon ride and tour of the area.
This is in the back paddock where I got to drive them all by myself … and in a real work situation to boot!
Perhaps this photo will give you an idea of just how much fun I am really having! Notice the smile that spans from ear to ear.
April 21, 2008 at 4:21 pm
God led our family to move to the country a couple of years ago (actually, He’d been moving in us before then, but we didn’t move until recently). As of yet, we have no church home and few close friends, but He has used this lonely time in our lives so that we would look to Him as our only guide and be open to hear what He has to say. What has he said? He wants us to follow Him, not a particular group. We should test everything by His Word and not look to our fellow sheep for our needs, but rather to our Shepherd only (Yes, as a shepherd myself, I wish my sheep would care about each other. But usually they don’t, and they can’t do so like their shepherd can).
I would be interested to know where in the Bible it says God wants His children to covenant in a multi-generational vision of rebuilding a biblically agrarian culture. I will be searching my Bible, too.
It looks like things will be going bad for America sometime in the near future, and I believe God is moving many of His children to the country so they will be in a position to help those around them and to be a witness to this wicked, lost world. As followers of Christ, we should live our lives with eternity in mind, for all this world will pass away, even our farms.
But, above all, go where God wants you to go and nowhere else. It took MUCH prayer to find where God wanted us to live. So keep praying ’till the answer comes.
God bless,
Taci
April 21, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Taci,
Thanks for your heartfelt reply! I agree wholeheartedly with you that we must follow God, not a particular group. We also, as of yet, have no church home and few close friends and believe that the Lord has Sovereignly led us into this isolation so that we would learn to lean solely upon Him alone. However, I also believe that this is a step of preparation toward His greater plan of bringing His children together in unity and close Christian community as He continues to build His kingdom, not only in eternity but also tangibly here on earth.
I have not always thought as I do now, but have come to the place I am as by a long journey. For a large portion of my life I simply went along with whatever I heard, believing that people knew what the Bible said and were concerned with teaching and living the truth. However, it didn’t take forever to find out that I didn’t really know what I believed and I most definitely didn’t know why, because I had not come to the convictions base upon the Word of God but just upon hearsay. Thus, it has become my great desire to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 2 Cor. 10:5, and learn to reshape my thoughts and beliefs based not just on some man’s teaching but upon the inspired Word of God. It is a long process and I have a very long way yet to go, (probably about another 60 years or so).
I would be happy to share with you what I believe the Lord has shown me concerning separating unto a biblically agrarian culture, for I believe that we must sanctify the Lord God in our hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks a reason of the hope that is in us, 1 Peter 3:15. However, I ask that you keep in mind that I am just another fallible human and that you test all I have to say by the standard of God’s Word, and reject anything you find to be false. For as you have said, God’s Word alone is the final standard and authority for all man and all of life. If you feel I am in error please feel free to tell me so and share with me what you believe to be the truth. And above all follow what the Lord shows you to be true, not what I have to say.
Please bear with me as I may need some time to prepare and condense my thoughts, (something I am not particularly adept at), but I shall respond in greater detail as soon as I have the chance. I would also welcome others to join in on our conversation as it progresses and thus broaden its scope and increase its depth. I am looking forward to receiving what I hope shall be mutual edification as we discuss what the Scripture have to say about these topics!
Tyler
April 22, 2008 at 8:17 am
Tyler,
Good post! If I wasn’t looking forward to spending a day in Rayville, I certainly am now!
Taci,
You are right to search the scriptures; but as you do, notice all the ways in which we are to minister to one another. The church from the very beginning has been a community of believers breaking bread together and sharing in the fellowship and teaching of the apostles. To cut yourself off from other believers willfully is to cut yourself off from the fullness of christian life, and therefore many opportunities for rich fellowship and sanctification and growth in the Spirit. Peter says we are ‘living stones’ fitted and joined together, not autonomous rocks strewn about the world, going it alone.
In our day the Protestant tendency to endlessly split the body of Christ has just plain gone too far. Paul asks the question ‘Is Christ divided?’. It’s a rhetorical question, but in context the answer he is clearly looking for is ‘no’. The two greatest commandments are ‘love God’ and ‘love your neighbor’. Now, think about this: We need TO HAVE neighbors before we can even begin to obey half the royal law! We desperately need to recover a christian life-style in our day that values christian liberty and the individual conscience, but not at the expense of living among and loving the brethren. It is through living, working, praying and worshipping together that we all come to a fulness of the faith. Whether we like it or not, that’s the way it is.
April 23, 2008 at 9:58 am
Tyler,
I hope I did not come across as harsh or argumentative. That was not my intention. I am looking forward to hear (read) what God has shown you. I do believe that the farm is the ideal place for a christian to live. For in that setting, you are more apt to hear Him in the peace and quiet while working the land He has provided. I have more time to think and listen to God than I did when we lived in town, even though I have less free time now, than I did then!
Randallgerard,
You are very right in all you have said. And yes, there are way too many splits in the church over the nitty gritty.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Romans 12:4
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hebrews 10:25
For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up. Ecclesiastes 4:10
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1
The sheep is not a solitary creature :)
We are not going it alone. As a family of 7 we have each other, but we do need to fellowship with other believers. Right now God has told us to wait.
Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD. Psalm 27:14
Perhaps I should have put my thoughts down as this: It is so easy to get caught up in a system that one looses sight of God. We must be careful not to just follow a way, but rather, the Way, not just a truth, but the Truth…..
Taci
April 23, 2008 at 11:05 am
Hi Taci,
You didn’t come across as harsh or argumentative at all, and I am actually excited about the opportunity to discuss something of depth with others who are passionate about their beliefs!
I also don’t want to appear as being antagonistic. I understand where you are at and feel that our circumstances in that regard are very similar. I do, however, happen to be more radical than most in my position regarding separatism, community and Christian agrarianism as I believe it to be taught in the Bible. Some of these terms can be confusing as they can mean different things to different people. For example when I talk of Christian agrarianism I am not just talking of farming, but an entire biblical culture: family, church, agriculture, government, etc. Perhaps this is too large of a subject to cover in just comments? Maybe I should consider doing a separate post on the topic? Also, there is a post and conversation that has been going on in Scott Terry’s blog titled “America, what went wrong?” that I think you might enjoy checking out. It can be found at: http://www.homesteaderlife.christianagrarian.com/2008/04/16/america-what-went-wrong/#comments
Randall,
Thanks for posting your thoughts, they are excellent. You seem to have great insight into matters of Christian living and I have enjoyed reading your comments, not only here on our blog but elsewhere as well! Indeed, if we are called to come out and be separate FROM the world’s culture we must do so by separating TO Christ’s culture. As all three of us know this can be a process that takes some time but it is important to recognize the truth and be moving towards it in obedience!
In the service of King Jesus!
Tyler
April 24, 2008 at 8:00 am
Tyler,
We were also blessed by your visit here. Please let your mother know that the kefir grains she gave me are doing great and we are enjoying our daily kefir smoothies!
Joyce from Rayville
April 24, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Tyler,
I will try to get to reading,”America, What went wrong” as soon as I get some spare time. I did, however, skim the comments (really fast). You put it just right when you said, “They are at war among themselves but at peace with the world.” That is why many people do not believe the gospel. They see that even Christians cannot get along. They are just like everybody else, arguing.
Yes, it might be a good idea to just do a post on the topic.
Must go now. The cows are calling.
Taci
April 24, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Tyler,
I’ve been blessed with your remarks here and elsewhere as well. For one so young, you show a remarkable grasp of the Scriptures. Your parents have done a fine job raising you, (as near as I can tell ;-)) but you are to be commended as well for making diligent study and application of all they have taught.
Well done young man. I hope I will have the honor of meeting you and yours someday.
Taci,
I’m relieved we are in general agreement. Thanks for your encouraging thoughts as well.
May 8, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Tyler,
First, I want to say that our discussion has caused me to study my Bible deeper and more than I have before. I have been learning so much, not only on this subject, but others as well. I’ve really been enjoying it, thank you.
I did read,”America, What Went Wrong?” The discussion has given me alot to think about and study. The kingdom is mentioned alot in the Bible and therefore must be pretty important. In regards to what went wrong in America, (just a thought) maybe the “founding fathers” failed to “pass on” the soul-saving, life-changing gospel to their children. But instead left them with only a vain outward form of religion and therefore no victory over the lusts of the flesh in their own life.? Also, if they were calvinists, then they were following a blind man. I learned recently that John Calvin persecuted other christians who didn’t hold to or agree with his teachings, even causing them to be put to death!
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11
I would be very leery of any of Calvin’s doctrines.
Also, I looked up the word covenant (and all its forms) in the concordance and examined each verse in which the word is used in the NT. NOWHERE does the New Testament tell believers to covenant with each other. It doesn’t even hint to it.
One more thing, (off the subject) have you ever been to ruralheritage.com? It has alot of good books and articles on draft animals.
Taci
May 10, 2008 at 8:57 am
Taci,
The word ‘trinity’ is not in the new testament either. Surely you don’t deny the Tri-unity of God, do you? Covenanting is clearly taught throughout the Bible, whether the word itself is used or not. Jesus said with regard to the bread and wine: ‘This is the New Covenant in my blood, do this in remembrance of me’. So then, the Lord’s table is a covenant meal; a meal commemorating the Lord’s one sacrifice made for sins forever. We who are believers share TOGETHER in one loaf and one cup.
‘Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it’ 1Cor. 12:27
This is the very nature of the New Covenant. When we covenant with Christ, we covenant with other believers, because all of us together are called ‘the body of Christ’. You can’t have a relationship with Christ without also being in relationship with other believers. So then, even though the word ‘covenant’ is not there, the idea is there; just as the word ‘trinity’ isn’t there, but God IS 3 in 1.
On another subject, John Calvin was a fallible man who tried to follow God and may have erred at times – just like us. I’m fallible as well. Does this mean that NOTHING I say can possibly be true or profitable? Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, Taci. The church today has much to learn from Calvin. And the church today includes you.
May 12, 2008 at 7:03 am
Tyler Says:
May 11, 2008 at 10:28 pm e
Hello you two,
I apologize for doing a poor job maintaining and participating in this discussion! It seems as though every minute of my time has been used up and busy. If I’m not working around the farm, gardens, goats, kids, milking, etc., I am busy working with my brother in our lawn care business that we own and operate to raise capital for our future. I didn’t even know you two had left comments until my Dad told me, since I hadn’t been on our blog to check in probably over a week and a half. I will have to do better in this regard. On top of that when I did get on late last night to write a reply, I found our server to be down for routine maintenance and was unable to access our blog.
Taci,
Thanks for your comments once again! I am honored and humbled by your earnest dedication of both time and effort to seriously weighing these issues, and studying them in the light of the Scripture. I appreciate your willingness to say what you believe to be true, even when you perceive we may disagree; such spirit is worthy of praise. Your parents appear to have done a great job raising a mature, godly woman. What you have said has given me a lot of food for thought as well sparking some great discussion within my own family.
After having read these past two comments, I feel there may have been a misunderstanding between us, due to what I now recognize as laxness in my choice of words in the sentence you mentioned at the start. Until now, I have not seen this, (as I should have), and must offer my apologies to you, Randall and anyone else who has been following this conversation and could have also got a wrong view of my position.
I see why you may have been concerned with what I stated when I said we are to “covenant in a multi-generational vision of rebuilding a Christian agrarian culture.” Let me do a little bit of clarification.
First, what I was trying to say is this: I believe that as Christians we are called to come out and be separate from the world’s culture, 2 Cor. 6:14-18. We need to begin coming together in communities where we can live in close proximity and fellowship with like-minded believers and rebuild a “Christian culture” as defined and governed by the Bible, Matt. 5:13-16, Phil. 2:12-16. We are the Israel of God, the seed of Abraham according to faith, (Gal. 3:7, 29 & 4:28), and as God called Israel to live lives set apart from the pagan customs of the nations around them so it is with us. I believe that as in any area of the Christian faith, this must be multi-generational. It must not stop with the first generation, but must be passed on to their children and their children’s children, Duet. 6:6, 7, Gen. 18:17-19, Prov. 22:6 Eph. 6:4. I believe that a decentralized, local community that retains a close connection with the land God has commanded them to steward is the biblically proper seedbed for accomplishing this commission. That such a lifestyle is what God intended in the first place and thus lends itself best to having a relationship with Him and living a life of obedience to His commands; Gen. 1:26-28 & 2:15 (see also the parables of the kingdom). I am not saying that we must all become farmers. No, that is but one part, we need an entire culture, a complete church. Moreover, it is not to say that going through a period of training in isolation is not a large part of how God prepares us for what is still to come. Perhaps the process of getting there could take a long time, even several generations. However, as I said before, “I also believe that this is a step of preparation toward His greater plan of bringing His children together in unity and close Christian community as He continues to build His kingdom, not only in eternity but also tangibly here on earth.”
Using the word “covenant” as I did appears to have given the wrong impression. My intention was to simply imply a commitment between believers, not some kind of formal “contract” between Christians. Coming as I do from a belief in the covenantal continuity of the Old and New Testaments, (viewing them as one “Covenant” progressively revealed, instead of as separate dispensations), the word covenant didn’t raise any red flag for me, even though I see now I was using it somewhat out of context.
I believe it to be clear in the Bible that as believers we are in covenant together with God, as Randall stated. However, I also agree with you that, (to my knowledge), the Bible does not mandate in any way, (precept principle or pattern), that as God’s children, we are required to make formal covenants with one anther, apart from our mutual covenant with our Father. Thus, although as Christians we are all in the same covenant with our Saviour and Lord, which we commemorate and renew each time we partake of the Lord’s Supper, I don’t see that we are taught to duplicate that same relationship with each other. To give a metaphor that is often used in Scripture: marriage and the family, Hosea 2:19-23, 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:21-33 Rev. 21:1-7, 9 etc. In the family, there is one overriding covenant, which governs and makes possible the family’s existence, the marriage covenant. This covenant is between the husband and the wife and is what formally binds them as two separate persons into one flesh, (which covenant, by the way, I believe is shown to be under the jurisdiction of the family, not the church). The children, however, are not required to make a formal covenant with their parents or with each other. They are partakers in the covenant made between their parents by right of birth and thus there is no need to make a new covenant with each other as they are bound together as one family, by the relationship of their father and mother, not some agreement or consent devised by or between themselves. From my reading of the Scriptures, God uses the example of the family as a picture of what He has ordained for His church. As the Bride of Christ, we, the church corporate, are in a covenant relationship with Him as our Bridegroom: we have been formally betrothed. However, in our relationship with each other we are called brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not married to one another, we are one family together.
Thus, although I see wisdom in adopting some of the principles of covenant in our relationship as fellow Christians, as an aid in avoiding the humanistic autonomy so rampant in the modern culture, and in fostering the closeness, commitment, and unity so clearly emphasized in the Scripture, I do not see a need or think it wise to duplicate our relationship to God in our relationship to each other. This does not mean that we are, as Randall so aptly put it, “autonomous rocks strewn about the world, going it alone,” for we are the body of Christ, the Temple of the Living God, and the family of God. There is a great need for commitment in the church today. The Bible does not give us the option of simply walking away when we face difficulties or disagreements with our brothers and sisters but commands us to work it out together, face to face, or if that fails within the context of the church. Matt. 5:21-26, Matt. 18:15-17, 1 Cor. 6:1-11. The key issue, I think is that we learn to keep things in their proper context, whether that be covenant, community, fellowship, love or unity etc.
Moreover, as for the issue with Calvin you both have brought up some good points. Even though I agree with Calvin on certain issues they are not issues that originated with him, (that which originates with any of us should also die with us, for it cannot be true unless it is grounded in the Scriptures and finds its origins not in some perceived truth but in THE TRUTH), but are truths that have been taught by faithful Christians from the times of the apostles. Because of this, I believe it is both foolish and unwise to attach a man’s name to any doctrine of Scripture simply because he does a good job explaining it. To do so is to give-in to the temptation to follow a man and let others define what is true for us, as you rightly warned against in your first comment. Calvin was a man coming out of great apostasy, and he carried a lot of baggage in the form of humanistic, papal theology and thus we should be very careful about just accepting all he had to say. However, as Randall correctly points out, there is much we all could stand to learn from Calvin and others like him, and we would indeed be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” to ignore all that a man has to say simply because he is found to be in error; even grave error.
Also, it is entirely possible for us to forget that Christianity is far more than correct doctrine. Many people throughout history have indeed made the Christian faith into nothing more than a set of moral codes to follow, forgetting that it is also a relationship with our Saviour and His church. It is easy for a person to err on either side of this issue. We must be careful not to create a religion of works nor to embrace a “spiritual” view of Christianity that focuses so much on grace, mercy and love that it loses sight of the very real and physical application of the Law of God in the life of every believer here on earth, Matt. 5:17-20, Matt. 28:18-20, Rom. 7:7-14, 1 Tim. 1:8.
Indeed, I have been to Ruralheritage.com and have really enjoyed reading the material they have, and there is definitely a lot of it. I just recently learned when placing an order through a company I like, called Mishcka Press, that they had bought out Rural Heritage and both companies are now being run by the same family.
I just became aware of your own blog when you first commented on this post and I am quite impressed! It looks as though you and your family have a lot going on at your own farm. I noticed that you have some pictures of goats up on your site. We really enjoy our goats and find ourselves building quite a relationship with them. One of my favorite times of the day is when I go out to do the morning and evening milking. It is so fun to have them talking back at me as though they understand what I am saying. We would like to have a family milk cow sometime, (we think we would probably like a Jersey), but just don’t have enough land to support one, (unless it were a miniature, which is out of our price range). It would be really fun making yogurt and kefir out of milk with a cow’s higher fat content, not to mention drooling over the idea of farm fresh butter.
Best regards,
Tyler
May 12, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Tyler,
It was good to hear from you!
I know this may sound a bit odd, but most of the time it takes me days to think, study, and pray as to what I will be commenting. I also discuss these things with my father, since he has already examined many of these issues in light of the Bible. So, I will tell you, for several days now I have been thinking and praying what to reply to Randall. I didn’t want to cause contention, but I didn’t fully agree with him. Last night, I had finally decided what to write, but pray as I would, God wouldn’t allow me the time. Now I know why. Almost everything you just wrote I fully agree on. The only thing I question is about Christ’s kingdom here on earth, but I have not studied it much yet, so I cannot say anything about it. These are the verses that I have trouble with with what you say about the kingdom (KJVersion): John 18:36 and Luke 17:21. But I haven’t looked at each place the Bible speaks of the kingdom, and one can’t look at the whole picture by looking at just one square inch of the painting.
As far as the word covenant is concerned, I was going to ask Randall what his definition of covenant was. For, I got to thinking, maybe you all are referring to something other than the dictionary definition, and just didn’t use quite the right word. We were disagreeing on something we agree on!
As far as Calvin is concerned, I don’t believe he had everything wrong, I just don’t trust his teachings anymore. I used to hold to many Calvinist teachings, but what I learned about Calvin has caused me to seriously examine those things which he taught that I had believed to be right.
I will look up those verses you listed, as I have time (I am milking three cows morning and night now, plus moving e-fence, among many other things!).
Oh, of milk cows, if you ever move to the midwest and want a good, gentle, hand-milked cow, we could probably find you one if we don’t have one for sale. We used to have goats, but like the shepherd dividing the sheep and the goats :), we kept the sheep and sold the goats. If the goats hadn’t had horns we would probably still have them, but goats (with horns) and sheep don’t mix.
Randall,
I DO consider carefully what you say. I just don’t reply right away. Thanks!
Taci
May 13, 2008 at 11:35 am
Tyler,
I will be talking over what you posted with my dad.
Also, just thought you might be interested, each Sunday now we have been listening to some Bible teaching. Wow. I have never heard anything so sound, and I have heard alot of teachings! I especially recommend this to christians as it will give you a much greater understanding of the salvation message, as that is what the book of Romans is about. What is presented goes against alot of mainstream church doctrine, but it’s so inline with the Bible. No, this is not just a man’s teachings. The preacher is only teaching the Bible, not what he thinks it says or what he wants it to say. He uses the KJV and if you listen you will find out why. You can download it for free:
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/podcasts/old-audio/romans-audio/
Thanks for visiting our blog!
Taci
June 3, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Taci,
At first, I wasn’t thinking I needed to make a response to the last comments you left but as I was reading them over again this past week I finally changed my mind. Maybe it will aid you in your study, maybe it won’t. Regardless, I have, at long last, decided to post one last comment of my own to wrap things up.
Thanks once again for your comments and consideration. By the way, taking several days to think about and decide what and how to comment doesn’t seem odd at all. In fact, I find it a bit comforting, as it frees me from feeling pressured to make immediate or hurried responses of my own. When I first started writing on this blog, I felt obligated to respond to people’s comments as soon as I read them. That’s easy if all I’m doing is thanking them for dropping by or commenting on the weather, but when it comes to stating and explaining my convictions or dealing with possible disagreements it becomes a little more difficult. Unlike C.S. Lewis, I don’t have perfect recall and so often times I can find myself scrambling to formulate a coherent and consistent basis for my position, even when I have spent many hours in thought or study to come to it and “should” have my answer ready. Sometimes this is when my pride steps in and condemns me for being unable to snap off the verses or logic at will and I have to step back and reevaluate why I am writing the response in the first place. Please believe me when I say that what I write here on this blog is not intended to “convert” anyone to my position. I do not claim to be right on all matters, since I know myself to be a fallible man like all others; and a young one at that. Therefore, consider what I have to say, but accept only that which the Lord shows you to be true. I am convinced it is my duty to express what I believe to be true, but to constrain another by my opinion is not within my authority to command, that power is God’s alone to do with what He wills.
After reading your last two comments, I thought I might share a little of the basis for why I believe in Christ’s kingdom here on earth and perhaps give further definition to what I mean when I say that. I do not have the time or desire right now to go into great detail, much less make a comprehensive apologia. However, I thought it might be helpful if I did a little explaining and perhaps shared a few of the verses that have helped bring me to my conclusions.
In both of the verses you mentioned, Jesus was addressing a misconception common among the Jews at that time, even among many of His disciples. As in other issues concerning the promised Messiah, they had limited their perception of His kingdom until it was but a twisted shadow of what God had said it would be. They had forsaken the Scriptural teaching of who the Messiah really was for a vision of nothing more that a temporal Saviour sent to deliver them from the hand of Rome and to reestablish Israel as an independent and sovereign nation above all others. Jesus spent a great deal of time during His earthly ministry addressing and correcting these misconceptions. To take the two verses you mentioned for example. In them, Christ is showing the Pharisees, (and Pilate who was simply expressing the view they taught), that their belief and trust in a temporal and nationalistic kingdom was both misplaced and incorrect. He is saying that where they were expecting a charismatic, military leader to free them from what they saw as unjust tyranny, (although it was really the judgment of God), God’s kingdom is not established upon “earthly” principles or through the might of the sword but by the power of God proceeding from the hearts and lives of His children. It is because of this important distinction that Christ can promises and guarantee the growth and effectual completion, (or victory), of His kingdom in such passages as the parable of the mustard seed and the leaven, (Matt. 13:31-33).
Perhaps we could start with John 18:36. So, what does Christ mean when He says, “My kingdom is not of this world.”? The operative words here are OF and WORLD, so to properly grasp what is being said we must understand their meaning. We do not have to look far, however, as the same truth is restated in the last part of the verse, where He says, “but now my kingdom is not FROM HENCE.” Christ is dealing with the origin of His kingdom and the power by which it is established, not actually its location, (though that can also be deduced from this verse, as well as many others). So, what this verse teaches us is that the kingdom of God is not established with carnal military might but with spiritual weapons. He is saying it is not OF or FROM the world, not that it is not IN it. This is the age-old distinction of God’s culture vs. the World’s culture. “World” is not speaking of the Earth and everything in it, it is speaking of the philosophy, the power, the dominion, which is antithetical to that God has ordained. Thus, Christ’s kingdom is not of the world, just as we as Christians are not of the world, we are IN it but not Of it.
In Luke 17: 20-21, Jesus is really just dealing with this same issue, only in a different situation. Once again, the Pharisees, because they were expecting a leader to deliver them from their subservience to Rome and not from their true bondage to sin and death, were asking Jesus to tell them when this deliverance would begin. However, Christ, and later His apostles, taught that God’s kingdom is not to be built through revolution, but through regeneration. It is to be built by God, through the hearts and souls of His people as they live out His commands. Yes, the kingdom of God is within us, it is in our hearts, but it is also around us as we live according to His commands and advance His dominion. The Pharisees believed in nothing more than a carnal earthly kingdom, today most Christians believe in nothing more than a spiritual heavenly kingdom. Both views limit God’s rule to only half of what is taught in Scripture, which is why I seek to distance myself from both, though not entirely from either.
Today it is common to hear Christians say that Christ’s kingdom is a kingdom in heaven and that the Earth is the devil’s. But according to the Scriptures, Christ came to destroy the works of the devil: this mission was fulfilled, which is why as Christians we have power to break his bands in our own life as well, (Heb. 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8).
He also came to fulfill the prophecy given to David and to sit on His throne as was promised, (2 Sam. 7:12-17, Is. 9:6-7, Ezek. 37:24-27, Acts 2:29-36).
The kingdom was established by and at the time of Christ, for as He himself said His kingdom was eminent and at hand not sometime in the distant future, (Dan 7:13-14 cf Matt. 28:18-20 &Mark 16:19& Luke 24:51 & Acts 1:9, Zech. 9:9-10 cf Matt. 21:2-5, Matt. 3:1-2, 4:17, 12:28, 16:28, Mark 1:15, Luke 10:9-11 etc.)
His rule and dominion is not only over Heaven but also over the Earth, (Ps. 2:8-9, 72:8-11, Dan. 7:13-14, Zech. 9:9-10 cf Mt. 21:2-5, Ps 24:1, Mt. 6:10, 28:18, Phil 2:10-11, Rev. 1:4-6,)
He is ruling from His throne at the right hand of His Father in heaven NOW and thus His kingdom has been established (Mt 28:18, Eph. 1:19-23, Col 1:13, Jude 25, Rev. 3:21,).
Nevertheless, it is not yet complete but will continue to grow until it fills the Earth and is acknowledged by all peoples’ kingdoms and nations, ( Ps 2:8-9, 72:8-11, Is. 9:6-7, Dan. 2:35, 44, Dan 7:13-14, Matt. 13:31-33, Acts 2:34-36).
This is by no means a complete list and doesn’t even begin addressing areas in Scripture where it is taught in principle, however, perhaps it is enough to give you an idea why I hold this position.
Thanks for mentioning and giving the link to Michael Pearls Romans series. As a result our family has decided to listen to it ourselves. We feel it could be a good tool for study and discussion, which might aid us in our current situation and help to achieve and define the goals and desires God has been giving us recently. We actually began listening to this series quite some time ago but never got very far and I don’t remember why. This time, however, we intend to finish what we have begun. We have been receiving the NGJ magazine for several years now and have been greatly blessed by their teaching and ministry, however, although I do believe he has much to share, esp. in regards to the family, there are some issues on which I don not believe he is correct and with which I cannot agree. Also, I don’t mean to be persnickety but no man can teach on the Bible without his perceptions and conclusions being influenced by his background, situation, presuppositions, thoughts or beliefs etc. There is no such thing as being entirely unbiased. We all bring things to the table when we share what we believe and this is not bad it is just reality. This is why we need and are given faith, as only God knows all things perfectly and without any possibility of error.
In the service of my King,
Tyler
June 8, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Tyler,
I looked up all the verses you presented. What you believe makes sense according to the verses you mentioned. You have given me much to think about and study. I do appreciate it when one takes the Bible literally. It means just what it says.
You weren’t being “persnickety”. Thanks for the admonition. You are right, and I will keep that thought in mind. I have not listened to all of Mr. Pearl’s teachings, but what I have heard has been Biblically sound. However, there are some beliefs I know that he holds that I do not agree with either (example: pre-tribulation rapture). Therefore, the Bible should be one’s final authority.
Thank you again for what you have shared. I’ve learned a lot.
Still learning,
Taci
June 9, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Taci,
Thanks once again for discussing all these issues with me. I have found it to be not only encouraging but also very thought provoking and even challenging as I have had to seriously consider where I stand and why. It is so easy for me to get comfortable with were I am at when there are not many others in our area who are really interested in both learning and living God’s Word, much less discussing deeper or more difficult issues. Like my Dad said on one of his responses to Here’s to Your Health, “I do not believe that by surrounding myself by, and speaking to, only those who are in 100% agreement with me, can I remain teachable,” and I highly appreciate your willingness to question me when you are not sure I am right or find yourself to be in disagreement. I also admire and am thankful for the friendly way you have handled our entire conversation, it has made the whole thing very enjoyable!
I wish you and your family all the best. May God guide and bless you as you seek to do His will!
Tyler